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It still doesn’t mean what you think it means…

June 15, 2010

It would appear that Mr. Miller has replied to my previous note to him. It was much of what I expected, and I will get to that presently, but let my begin with a note of mea culpa. For in his only moment of correctness, Miller rightly points out that:

I was discussing the case of Father H, who we now know is Fr. Peter Hullermann. Yet Angilbert rebuts using an example of the American priest Fr. . It’s ironic that the Church’s current predicament makes it difficult to figure out which potentially-Pope-linked pedophile we’re talking about.

I don’t know if it was the scale of ‘s predicament which is the issue here, except perhaps how it has been portrayed in the media. As noted in other articles on the site here, and by other bloggers elsewhere, the scope of perpetrated by Catholic priests is, objectively speaking, pitifully small in comparison to the rates of offense one can find both in other Christian denominations, other religions, and in secular institutions as well.

Yet a person could be forgiven, if he read only the newspapers and formed his opinions from those sources alone, that the scope and scale of the abuse scandal within the Church is much larger. Indeed, he could even be forgiven for (quite erroneously) concluding that almost every Catholic priest was a sexual predator waiting to explode (ahem). In fact, less than 2% of priests have ever been implicated in abuse scandals; it’s likely that fewer still are actually guilty.

But you wouldn’t know as much from reading (or watching) the news, in most cases. When you crunch the numbers, yeah, you see it for yourself…but does Joe Average bother to take matters into his own hands in that way, or does he just digest what the glowing box tells him and regard that as the whole truth? Does Mr. Miller do any different, I wonder?

(I should search Mr. Miller’s site for articles which antagonize e.g. teacher’s unions in the for their much more easily verifiable complicity in covering up sexual abuse of students perpetrated by teachers…at a rate that may well be as much as 100 times that of Catholic priests. Does the good reader suppose I will find even so much as one cursory comment on that matter? It seems doubtful.)

But to address Mr. Miller’s comment directly, I did in fact get confused, because I wanted to get back to playing and so did only a cursory search for “Father H”, and then linked to a couple of articles from sources known to me that came up in the results. This was hasty and sloppy, and as we can see led me in a wrong direction. I apologize for my haste and the error it led me to.

Let me also offer a few more links, all of which deal with Father Hullermann by name, and all of which basically point out the same conclusion: there’s really no logical, truthful way stain with the brush.

Now that we’ve got that out of the way, it’s time to respond to Mr. Miller’s response to me. Mr. Miller begins with something that I intend to return to shortly; his next observation is:

To my mind, identifying the authority to investigate, punish, treat, and forgive is a “faith and morals” issue, as is the question of whether the principle sin in molesting adolescent boys is statutory rape or homosexuality.

Obviously, we’re not actually discussing Mr. Miller’s own opinions here, since they are irrelevant to what actually is, but I will note that he’s not entirely incorrect here. Obviously, the subjects listed above do touch on issues of faith and morals (faith and morals being, as we discussed previously, the necessary subject matter of any infallible pronouncement), since they do touch on the Church’s response to homosexuals and pedophiles, but it would be something of a stretch to call that the primary focus of the statements which Mr. Miller himself chose to highlight. The primary focus of those statements had to do with procedure and pastoral care.

Mr. Miller attempts to move beyond mere tu quoque, however, and goes on to note that:

Were these “procedural rules” not matters of faith and morals, much of the Catechism Angilbert uses to justify the “faith and morals” provision itself would not qualify as infallible.

In a sense, Mr. Miller is both right and wrong. The Catechism is the articulation of the Catholic faith, a rather lengthy expansion on every detail and profession contained in the . Where it specifically addresses matters pertaining to infallible teachings (e.g. Marian dogma, Christology), it is indeed infallible. In regard to other ecclesial traditions and cultural applications, it is not infallible, and can change over time.

Of course, in saying as much, we should be careful to also note that just because a particular Catechetical teaching is not infallible does mean it’s completely optional. Though many of its statements fall below the de fide level of authority, all Catholics are, by act of self-identifying as Catholic, obligated to give them obedient assent.

We could argue that the same is true for things like papal encyclicals and pastoral letters from bishops or cardinals, and in fact many do. Again, it becomes a question of degree, or rather of the level of authority of the statements. ‘s letters fall into this latter category: there is much in them which is true and reflective of the faith, and Catholics would in general do well to follow what has been outlined in them. Those statements are almost certainly not infallible, as we will presently discuss, nor are they statements which Catholics are obligated to give obedient assent to, except to the degree that they correctly address and articulate teachings which Catholics are supposed to give assent to.

Yes, this is a lot of…let’s call it gradiation. Welcome to the Catholic Church.

So in essence, I grant Mr. Miller’s statement, above…and also dismiss it. I didn’t claim that the Catechism was 100% infallible, but that doesn’t mean that at any given point in time it is not still the formal articulation of the Catholic faith in very granular detail.

Mr. Miller then attempts to bring out his shoehorn again:

it is clearly a moral matter to ask: who has jurisdiction over criminal priests? Is it the Church, or is it the police?

As famously said: Really?

Ratzinger’s letter prescribed a course of pastoral action by which such sinners ought to be reconciled and preserved from temporal authority rather than isolated by secular punishment. Is this really a matter of outside of “faith and morals”? I think not, and I think I’ve justified my claims to the contrary.

Again, we’re not actually discussing Mr. Miller’s own opinions here, since they are irrelevant to what actually is. So: is it a matter of “faith and morals”, to raise the issue of what the proper legal, pastoral, and procedural approach is to dealing with a priest who has been accused of sexual abuse, or who has confessed thereto?

(I use the term “confessed” here in a decidedly non-sacramental sense, because dealing with a confessional admission of sexual abuse is a much more delicate subject. I will only remark, to that point, that Catholic doctrine does not permit a confessor to make the absolution granted to a penitent contingent upon the penitent turning himself over to the proper legal authorities to make redress for the crime he has confessed to committing. The seal of confession is what it is; better a priest be incarcerated or even martyred than let slip what sins he has heard confessed.)

Let’s not forget that, as notes, “What is often forgotten is how little was known of paedophilia. It was believed it could be cured, and that penitence was tantamount to recovery.

The Church, in its ignorance of the recidivism of paedophiles, too often gave them a second, third or fourth chance, moving them to different parishes, or even different countries, where they just abused again. Children’s homes made the same mistake.”

Since the time of Benedict’s authorship of both letters that Mr. Miller raises issue with, both the Church’s understanding and the world at large’s understanding of has grown by leaps and bounds. We understand now, and did not back then, that the sexual impetus to abuse children is separate from simply feeling sexual attraction to members of the same sex, or to members of the opposite sex. It is a clinical disorder, in addition to being a moral disorder, whereas is solely a moral disorder.

Relatedly, Mr. Miller states that:

Strangely, Angilbert ducks the larger crime/sin question. He claims that molesting post-pubescent boys is homosexuality, not pedophilia, and that homosexuality is a reconcilable sin. While I don’t see the justification for calling homosexuality a sin (contra Aquinas, we see it in nature: this is a classic slippage between procedural and substantive) I do believe that non-consensual sex is a crime that must be punished, and that adolescent boys cannot give meaningful consent to adults.

To his point contra Aquinas, I might point out that dogs and other animal also occasionally eat their own feces, or the feces of others of their species. Yet strangely, most civilized nations have laws which come down quite harshly on those operators of eateries who allow fecal matter to come into contact with food to be served. The fact that sentient animals possessed only of irrational souls (creatures of instinct alone, in essence) do a thing does not mean that the thing is permissible to sapient human beings possessed of rational souls. Were Mr. Miller more learned in regard to the saint whom he so casually dismisses, he’d have known as much.

But let’s come back to the homosexuality/pedophilia point. It has taken Western society a long damn time to form its current understanding of homosexuality; then-Cardinal Ratzinger’s letters reflect an older way of thinking about the problem that was common to far more institutions and groups than just the Catholic Church. Varions non-Western societies, including many ic societies, haven’t even got the older memo yet; child marriage is common in many less civilized parts of the world, often justified because of the “example” of (as though anything that man did is worthy of emulation).

Now, to be fair, I did not — as Mr. Miller notes — directly address “the crime/sin question”, because it was not my intent to do so. I was addressing the infallibility, and Mr. Miller’s quite incorrect understanding and use of the concept in his attempt to both smear the Pope and paint the Church into some manner of corner. (I have, however, addressed the crime/sin angle in other writings.)

As to my terming things in certain ways, Mr. Miller quite dishonestly represents me: I use the category of pedophilia to describe abuse of children, and I use the category of ephebophilia to describe the abuse of post-pubescent non-adults. These are established categories which need neither introduction nor further justification for their use.

As a separate, but not wholly un-related, layer, I then also factor in the matter of homosexuality. The vast majority (again: 85%) of abuses perpetrated by priests have been homosexual in nature. That’s an inescapable fact of this whole ugly mess.

So contra Mr. Miller’s characterization of my remarks, my stance is much more both/and: I acknowledge the molestation and the overwhelmingly homosexual elements thereto, but still treat each as being a separate issue. Which, unsurprisingly, they are. I should also point out that I regard both the sin of homosexuality and the sin of pedophilia as being reconcilable; there is only one sin (we are told) that is unforgivable, and neither homosexuality or pedophilia is it.

But let’s get to the meat of the matter, the issue that I was actually addressing before having to respond to all this other clutter:

Does the 1986 letter claim infallibility? Well, it’s based on the 1975 letter Sexual Personae, which Ratzinger didn’t write, and which does claim infallibility through the “constant teaching of the Magisterium and the moral sense of the Christian people.” The power and the problem with various attempts at infallibility is that they are transitive: what the ordinary and universal Magisterium proclaims in 1975 can be reproclaimed in 1986 or in 2001 with slight expansions while preserving the original infallibility. And thus “procedural” matters slowly become “substantive” matters.

The shoehorn is working overtime here, but ultimately fails in its task.

To understand why, we must ask: what is the scope and object of infallibility? “In the Vatican definition infallibility (whether of the Church at large or of the pope) is affirmed only in regard to doctrines of faith or morals; but within the province of faith and morals its scope is not limited to doctrines that have been formally revealed. This, however, is clearly understood to be what theologians call the direct and primary object of infallible authority: it was for the maintenance and interpretation and legitimate development of Christ’s teaching that the Church was endowed with this charisma. But if this primary function is to be adequately and effectively discharged, it is clear that there must also be indirect and secondary objects to which infallibility extends, namely, doctrines and facts which, although they cannot strictly speaking be said to be revealed, are nevertheless so intimately connected with revealed truths that, were one free to deny the former, he would logically deny the latter and thus defeat the primary purpose for which infallibility was promised by Christ to His Church. This principle is expressly affirmed by the Vatican Council when it says that “the Church, which, together with the Apostolic office of teaching received the command to guard the deposit of faith, possesses also by Divine authority (divinitus) the right to condemn science falsely so called, lest anyone should be cheated by philosophy and vain conceit.”

Which means that: “it is generally held, and may be said to be theologically certain, (a) that what are technically described as “theological conclusions,” i.e. inferences deduced from two premises, one of which is revealed and the other verified by reason, fall under the scope of the Church’s infallible authority. (b) It is also generally held, and rightly, that questions of dogmatic fact, in regard to which definite certainty is required for the safe custody and interpretation of revealed truth, may be determined infallibly by the Church. Such questions, for example, would be: whether a certain pope is legitimate, or a certain council ecumenical, or whether objective heresy or error is taught in a certain book or other published document. This last point in particular figured prominently in the Jansenist controversy, the heretics contending that, while the famous five propositions attributed to Jansenius were rightly condemned, they did not truly express the doctrine contained in his book “Augustinus”. Clement XI, in condemning this subterfuge merely reasserted the principle which had been followed by the fathers of Nicaea in condemning the “Thalia” of Arius, by the fathers of Ephesus in condemning the writings of Nestorius, and by the Second Council of Constantinople in condemning the Three Chapters. (c) It is also commonly and rightly held that the Church is infallible in the canonization of saints, that is to say, when canonization takes place according to the solemn process that has been followed since the ninth century. Mere beatification, however, as distinguished from canonization, is not held to be infallible, and in canonization itself the only fact that is infallibly determined is that the soul of the canonized saint departed in the state of grace and already enjoys the beatific vision. (d) As to moral precepts or laws as distinct from moral doctrine, infallibility goes no farther than to protect the Church against passing universal laws which in principle would be immoral. It would be out of place to speak of infallibility in connection with the opportuneness or the administration of necessarily changing disciplinary laws although, of course, Catholics believe that the Church receives appropriate Divine guidance in this and in similar matters where practical spiritual wisdom is required.”

(It is probably pedantic to remark, at this point, that just because faith and morals is the key criteria, it does not automatically follow that any and all Church statements pertaining to faith and morals are infallible. But just so we can be clear on that point, there it is.)

All of which is well and good, but how do the apply? What teachings are actually infallible? “As regards matter, only doctrines of faith and morals, and facts so intimately connected with these as to require infallible determination, fall under the scope of infallible ecclesiastical teaching. These doctrines or facts need not necessarily be revealed; it is enough if the revealed deposit cannot be adequately and effectively guarded and explained, unless they are infallibly determined.

As to the organ of authority by which such doctrines or facts are determined, three possible organs exist. One of these, the magisterium ordinarium, is liable to be somewhat indefinite in its pronouncements and, as a consequence, practically ineffective as an organ. The other two, however, are adequately efficient organs, and when they definitively decide any question of faith or morals that may arise, no believer who pays due attention to Christ’s promises can consistently refuse to assent with absolute and irrevocable certainty to their teaching.

But before being bound to give such an assent, the believer has a right to be certain that the teaching in question is definitive (since only definitive teaching is infallible); and the means by which the definitive intention, whether of a council or of the pope, may be recognized have been stated above. It need only be added here that not everything in a conciliar or papal pronouncement, in which some doctrine is defined, is to be treated as definitive and infallible. For example, in the lengthy Bull of Pius IX defining the Immaculate Conception the strictly definitive and infallible portion is comprised in a sentence or two; and the same is true in many cases in regard to conciliar decisions. The merely argumentative and justificatory statements embodied in definitive judgments, however true and authoritative they may be, are not covered by the guarantee of infallibility which attaches to the strictly definitive sentences — unless, indeed, their infallibility has been previously or subsequently established by an independent decision.”

And let’s also add one more important point: “In Catholic teaching, diocesan bishops do not in themselves possess the charism of infallibility (but do so when gathered in ecumenical council), leaving these early Church canonizations without certainty of infallibility.”

Now, it is true that Ratzinger’s 1975 letter does invoke the “constant teaching of the Magisterium and the moral sense of the Christian people”, but does this mean his letter is infallible? Actually, it doesn’t.

Though Cardinal Ratzinger does invoke, in a sense, the magisterium ordinarium, this alone is not enough to confer infallibility onto his statements, according to how the doctrine is actually defined. In part, this is due to the fact that the subject of his letter is not addressing directly matters of “faith and morals” (Mr. Miller’s own thoughts on the matter nonwithstanding), nor is his opinion being expressed in the context of an ecumenical, conciliar setting (and obviously, it’s also not a papal Bull). It is a letter by one man. Yes, that man may have been the head of the , but so what?

Infallibility, even of the ordinarium, is a very strict, very narrow category which one man cannot ever legitimately claim simply by binding his statements, in writing, to the contstant teaching of the offices of the Church. And good thing too, or no doubt many a bishop would attempt to establish for himself a little fifedom with every pastoral letter he published in parish bulletins. Even papal Bulls which define infallible doctrine, like the , are not infallible in their entirety; only small portions thereof will be (though the rest will still make for good reading and sound teaching).

Now, had either or both of then-Cardinal Ratzinger’s letters been recognized by valid ecumenical councils, parts of them could possibly be considered infallible. But unless Mr. Miller is sitting on a treasure trove of secret historical documents confirming councils of just that sort and subject…I’m afraid he’s just plain wrong.

Which is why, by the way, I reserved comment on Mr. Miller’s opening remark to me…

So far as I can tell, this is simply an argument from assertion: “This is not that.”

…until now. In a sense, he was right to observe as much, because I was indeed saying that what he thought he had was not what he thought it was. But equally, I would wonder at whether his attempt to catch me in this act he describes here is not a bit of projection on his part. His whole argument has very much been a grand, erroneous attempt to claim that “this (the Pope’s letter) is that (infallible)”. The difference, at least as far as I can see, is that whereas I can quite easily demonstrate, without the need for convoluted reasonings and selective quotes, that Ratzinger’s letters were not infallible, Mr. Miller has to perform quite a lot of mental-fu in order to shoehorn Ratzinger into the narrow category of the infallible…and even then does not succeed to any significant degree.

So perhaps I am simply arguing from assertion…but if so, then only in the sense that I am offering a correct assertion to counter an incorrect one.

Now, I began this article with the admission of an error that Mr. Miller rightly pointed out I had committed. I have now performed the same service for him, and pointed out his own error. I hope the good reader will join me in praying for Mr. Joshua A. Miller, in the hope that his heart will be moved, and that he will likewise admit to being wrong on the points here discussed.

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Posted by: Saint Angilbert
Posted in: Aberrant Sexuality - Catholicism - Crime and Punishment - Men and Women - Sex | Tags: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,


8 comments for this post.

  1. Joshua Miller
    June 15, 2010, at 5:50 pm

    You should take a look at the Professio Fidei rather than basing your arguments on the old Catholic Encyclopedia. Since it was published two codes of canon law have been promulgated changing the law in addition to various one-off changes.

    More to the point, your quotes concern only the extraordinary magisterium, not the ordinary and universal magisterium. Ratzinger’s letter depended on Sexual Personae, which was infallible because promulgated through by the ordinay and universal magisterium. Just because the bishops are not in one place does not mean that they cannot come into agreement.

    Thanks for taking the time to respond: if you weren’t aware, the initial post you responded to is a part of a series, and I hope you’ll keep reading.

    PS- If you respond in comments, and would like me to see your response, please e-mail me to let me know.

  2. Saint Angilbert
    June 15, 2010, at 7:04 pm

    Josh, please get this through your head: you’re just wrong on this one. Which is a shame, because you’re otherwise a clever enough guy.

    Sexual Personae is not reasonably called infallible, and certainly is not generally held to be as such by the Church as a whole. That’s not to say it does not contain valid teaching, or that Catholics do not do well to pay it heed…but it just isn’t infallible, I’m sorry.

    Let’s put this in scope: in the entirety of the papal Bull which infallibly proclaimed, ex cathedra, the Assumption of Mary, only a couple of sentences were actually infallible…the rest of that rather lengthy document was good reasoning and sound teaching, but was not infallible. How, then, can Sexual Personae be, in its entirety, infallible (per your assertion), when even a document which was explicitly declared to have an infallible teaching was not 100% infallible.

    I’m sorry, it just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

    I’ll grant the point that the bishops can come into agreement…but equally, you must grant that even though this agreement across great distance is possible, the fact that the bishops agree (in general) on a statement does not automatically make a teaching or statement — even one which explicitly pertains to faith and morals — infallible. The agreement of the episcopate must still happen in the context of an ecumenical council in order for even a short statement to be deemed infallible; there is no bloody way that the bishops could deem the entirety of two letters published by one of their number to be infallible simply due to their informal and not-necessarily-articulated agreement therewith.

    And finally, one last point: the fact that you feel that Ratzinger’s supposedly infallible statements arrive at, or set up, a contradiction or conflict is itself proof that one or both statements cannot be infallible.

    None of this prevents you from rendering further analysis, of course…but if you proceed along your current line of reasoning, what analysis actually follows will necessarily be in error, because you just. Don’t. Understand. What. You’re. Talking. About as pertains to infallibility.

    (That, and it kinds of sounds like you’ve drunk the kool-aid the legacy media’s been serving up where Ratzinger’s complicity in the Father H. case is concerned.)

  3. Joshua Miller
    June 25, 2010, at 2:39 pm

    Just as claiming it doesn’t make it so, denying it doesn’t make it not so.

    You don’t seem to have a handle on the way in which the ordinary and universal magisterium can be infallible.

    “Wherefore, by divine and Catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in Scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium.” -Dei Filius (1870)

    From here: http://www.catholicplanet.com/CMA/heresy-infallibility.htm

    Pope John Paul II, in his Address to the Bishops from the United States of America on their ‘Ad Limina’ Visit (Thursday, 15 October 1988), gave a concise summary of these three ways that the Magisterium teaches infallibly:

    “This magisterium is not above the divine word but serves it with a specific ‘charisma veritatis certum,’ [Latin for: the charism of certain truth] which includes the charism of infallibility, present not only in the solemn definitions of the Roman Pontiff and of Ecumenical Councils, but also in the universal ordinary magisterium, which can truly be considered as the usual expression of the Church’s infallibility.”

    A teaching falls under the Universal Magisterium (i.e. the ordinary universal Magisterium) when the Bishops of the Church “…even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held.” (Lumen Gentium, n. 25)

  4. Saint Angilbert
    June 25, 2010, at 3:05 pm

    Just as claiming it doesn’t make it so, denying it doesn’t make it not so.

    You don’t seem to have a handle on the way in which the ordinary and universal magisterium can be infallible.

    Now, now…no need to project.

    I’ve got quite a good handle on the concept of infallibility works; I’ve spent quite a number of years now debating it (among other matters) with Protestants of various sorts. It’s a subject I’ve covered many times, though not at this blog.

    Whereas you do not have a good grasp on the concept at all, and in fact make the same basic error that every Protestant I’ve debated makes: you think it’s applicable across a wide range of statements and paradigms, and that it is meant to apply to a vast quantity of statements and writings. In fact, the opposite (in both cases) is true: infallibility is a very narrow doctrine which is difficult for even the most sincere and doctrinally sound papal statements to qualify as.

    And as I have satisfactorily demonstrated, there is no way that a single man, no matter how high in the Church, can in a single letter claim infallibility for every statement made therein simply by invoking the universality of the Church and her teachings. It doesn’t and can’t work that way for papal bulls; it certainly can’t work that way for some bishop’s letter…even if that bishop became Pope twenty or thirty years later!

    “Wherefore, by divine and Catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in Scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium.” -Dei Filius (1870)

    This proves your point how? It’s certainly true that there is, within Scripture and tradition, infallible teaching, that has been understood to be infallible by different means. Claiming the mantle of those means within the text of a letter does not automatically confer infallibility on that letter, however, and it’s a good thing that such is the case! Doctrinal chaos would be the result, otherwise.

    “This magisterium is not above the divine word but serves it with a specific ‘charisma veritatis certum,’ [Latin for: the charism of certain truth] which includes the charism of infallibility, present not only in the solemn definitions of the Roman Pontiff and of Ecumenical Councils, but also in the universal ordinary magisterium, which can truly be considered as the usual expression of the Church’s infallibility.”

    Do I need to compose a Venn diagram? It is true that infallibility is included among the charisms of the magisterium, but it does not follow that every magisterial teaching is infallible. Certainly, a single bishop writing a letter cannot reasonably claim infallibility for the contents of his letter, whether or not he invokes the universality of the Church in its text. Noting the Church’s universality is a pretty common linguistic device in Church documents…exactly none of which is infallible over 100% of its text, mind you.

    Think about that for a moment: there is no Church document in existence which is 100% infallible. How then can two of Joseph Ratzinger’s letters be infallible to the level you claim they are?

    A teaching falls under the Universal Magisterium (i.e. the ordinary universal Magisterium) when the Bishops of the Church “…even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held.”

    And this is the clincher, but I suppose you cannot see how this statement supports my position on this matter. For starters, were the Bishops in agreement on any one position articulated in either of Ratzinger’s letters? The fact that so many bishops were caught up on the wrong side of this scandal suggests that they were not…and even if they were, no official statement of global support for Ratzinger’s letters was, to my knowledge, ever released. Yes, the bishops are distributed, but their common agreement still requires an outward sign in order for the charism to apply; private/unvoiced agreement does not an infallibility make!

    Additionally, this statement by the Pope is not in and of itself infallible, that I am aware. That’s not to say that it is not entirely incorrect, either; it isn’t, and in fact contains sound teaching in general which the average Christian would do well to pay heed to. But even allowing for the most liberal interpretation of the statements above that is possible within reason, there is no way to jump from these statements to the conclusion that Ratzinger authored two entirely infallible letters during his episcopacy.

  5. Joshua A. Miller
    June 29, 2010, at 6:42 am

    You should consider installing the “subscribe to comments” plugin, so I’ll know when you’ve responded.

    You seem to be willfully misreading me, and I’m not sure why you’d do that. I’ve never claimed that every statement in each letter claims infallibility. By drawing a portrait of my claims that is overbroad, it’s easy to beat up on these twisted claims, but you’re targeting a strawman.

    “Only the truth is pastoral.”

    My claim is only that the choice of reconciliation over punishment or defrocking are enunciated infallibly, and not because of Benedict’s letter, but because of Sexual Personae. That’s the document that is infallible through universal and ordinary magisterium. Then-Ratzinger (not writing as Pope Benedict) only repeated and concretized a previously enunciated proclamation of the ordinary and universal magisterium. Infallible propositions aren’t less infallible when repeated in other contexts by speakers without the authority to make those claims infallible.

    Moreover, this is wholly consistent with the tradition and the Scriptures. The tradition of reconciliation for traditor clergy is at the heart of the Roman Catholic Church: disagreement on this matter is the source of the original schism with the Donatists. It’s a core commitment of the Church, not simply a procedural matter to be revised or tossed aside.

    Other core commitments include the primacy of the Church’s jurisdiction over its clergy with regard to the secular state’s claim to jurisdiction, and the age at which sexual activity is by definition non-consensual rather than potentially consensual. (This is the debate over whether the cases are abuse, i.e. pedophilia or simply deviant, i.e. ephebophilia.) Rather than targeting strawmen, you should consider whether you’d disagree with any of these claims.

  6. Saint Angilbert
    June 29, 2010, at 7:33 am

    You should consider installing the “subscribe to comments” plugin, so I’ll know when you’ve responded.

    I’ve used that on other blogs, and it’s a nice enough feature. I’ve since gone and disabled it on those other blogs, and haven’t installed it here, because it generates too much email traffic from my server.

    Getting flagged as a spam source is not among my goals as a blogger or website editor/operator.

    You seem to be willfully misreading me, and I’m not sure why you’d do that. I’ve never claimed that every statement in each letter claims infallibility. By drawing a portrait of my claims that is overbroad, it’s easy to beat up on these twisted claims, but you’re targeting a strawman.

    I suppose you could argue that, but in my defense let me point out that I didn’t know what else to conclude. None of the passages of text you cited from either letter used language that one would expect to see in statements of an infallible nature, so it wasn’t exactly an unreasonable assumption to conclude that you had instead meant to argue that the letters themselves were, in their entirety, infallible.

    “Only the truth is pastoral.”

    My claim is only that the choice of reconciliation over punishment or defrocking are enunciated infallibly, and not because of Benedict’s letter, but because of Sexual Personae.

    Which doesn’t hold water either; Sexual Personae is not in and of itself an infallible document, so there’s no way that it could confer infallibility onto subsequent documents that draw on its teachings and verbiage.

    That’s not to say, of course, that Sexual Personae is not chock-a-block full of good and valid teaching…it’s just not infallible teaching.

    That’s the document that is infallible through universal and ordinary magisterium.

    By saying this, you just shot everything you just said above, while taking me to task, in the foot. Take everything I’ve written, replace references to Benedict’s letters with references to Sexual Personae, and the argument a) is the same, and b) still stands. There’s no way within the bounds of reason that the entirety of Sexual Personae is infallible, and in fact none of its statements are themselves infallible.

    Then-Ratzinger (not writing as Pope Benedict) only repeated and concretized a previously enunciated proclamation of the ordinary and universal magisterium. Infallible propositions aren’t less infallible when repeated in other contexts by speakers without the authority to make those claims infallible.

    But there’s still the matter of the original propositions itself not being infallible. An encyclical is, in general, less authoritive than a papal bull, and even a papal bull isn’t necessarily an infallible document; if a bull contains any infallible teachings, we might (at most) be talking about a sentence or two within the entire lengthy document.

    So for the same reasons I’ve already outlined, your premise — even now correctly understood by myself — is still in error.

    Moreover, this is wholly consistent with the tradition and the Scriptures. The tradition of reconciliation for traditor clergy is at the heart of the Roman Catholic Church: disagreement on this matter is the source of the original schism with the Donatists. It’s a core commitment of the Church, not simply a procedural matter to be revised or tossed aside.

    Reconciliation is a sacrament; of course it’s at — or, strictly speaking, near — the core of the Church. Urging reconciliation in place of legal retribution…eh, that has been done, and there’s arguments that it has in general been an error.

    Now, its worth mentioning, perhaps, that a confessor cannot make absolution contingent on the penitent turning himself over to the authorities, in in fact some manner of legal transgression is confessed. And once absolved, the penitent is no longer under a moral penalty for his actions…though obviously, he may still by rights be under a legal penalty. Moral law is not the same as civic law, after all.

    Even so, explicitly holding the two to be in contrast, or emphasizing one at the expense of the other, is neither particularly in keeping with the traditions of the Church (which generally hold that laws of the land must be obeyed and upheld, unless they are explicitly immoral — e.g. China’s one-child policy), nor is it particularly in keeping with Scripture (and then especially the example of Christ).

    Other core commitments include the primacy of the Church’s jurisdiction over its clergy with regard to the secular state’s claim to jurisdiction, and the age at which sexual activity is by definition non-consensual rather than potentially consensual.

    It’s not unreasonable for an organization to claim the right to discipline its own employees first, before the involvement of the authorities. It happens often enough in the corporate world, and in the education system. Now, like the education system and elements of the corporate world, the Church was once complicit in keeping its employees shielded from criminal prosecution; unlike the education system and elements of the corporate world, the Church is now leaping ahead to confront abusers head-on and see to it that they are disciplined properly, by both Church and secular authorities.

    I’m not actually aware that the Church formally defines and age which is, within its understanding, the legitimate age of sexual consent; both pedophilia and ephebophilia are viewed as being abusive, and in a sense both are viewed as being deviant. We could argue that the deviance in question (pedophilia is a separate condition from homosexuality) is variant between the two cases, but in so doing we would then have to argue that homosexuality is the bigger problem in this whole messy abuse scandal.

    Arguably, all sexual activity engaged in by priests is a matter requiring disciplinary action (married priests being the obvious, though not common, exception). Granted, sexual activity in which both participants are above the legal age of consent in a jurisdiction is not also a criminal matter. Then too, ages of consent vary somewhat across jurisdictions; it was pegged at 14 in Canada, and either has been increased back to 16 or else will be upon passage of a bill under review.

    And let’s not pretend that this doesn’t complicate matters. If a priest engages in sexual relations with two 16-year olds in two separate jurisdictions, he has committed a moral wrong in both cases…but may or may not have committed a criminal act in both cases. This is another argument in favour of the Church getting the first pass at disciplinary action, I think.

    (This is the debate over whether the cases are abuse, i.e. pedophilia or simply deviant, i.e. ephebophilia.) Rather than targeting strawmen, you should consider whether you’d disagree with any of these claims.

    My primary issue is that you don’t in fact grasp what the heck infallibility is, and are desperately trying to sandwich documents that aren’t, by any reasonable measure, infallible into your warped definition of the concept in order to make your point about the Church being caught in some kind of contradictory position.

    It just isn’t so.

    On the other details, you’re not nearly so far off base.

  7. Joshua A. Miller
    June 30, 2010, at 7:57 am

    I must begin by acknowledging a mistake: the document in question is Persona Humana. There is no such letter as Sexual Personae. Somehow I jumbled the subtitle’s “sexual ethics” with the Latin title. That perhaps explains our disagreement, so if you’d like to retract or rethink your claims, that’s fine.

    However, I note you never googled the document in an attempt to determine if it was a private letter or papal bull. So how can you have spent all this time certain that I’m wrong, when you don’t even know the source material? You just know, eh? I find that makes your claims less credible.

    Another misreading: I’m not trying to reduce the Church to contradiction. There’s a difference between consistency and error. My interest is in looking at various institutions that try to track the truth about moral value, of which the Church is only one. The Church is certainly wrong about consensual adult homosexuality, but what’s interesting is that this error is rooted in a method of moral inquiry that often yields good results. So the question is: what is it about the design of an epistemic institution (an institution that enacts epistemic procedures) that leads to error, and can these features be rooted out, or is some kind of errancy inevitable?

  8. Saint Angilbert
    June 30, 2010, at 9:00 am

    I must begin by acknowledging a mistake: the document in question is Persona Humana. There is no such letter as Sexual Personae. Somehow I jumbled the subtitle’s “sexual ethics” with the Latin title. That perhaps explains our disagreement, so if you’d like to retract or rethink your claims, that’s fine.

    This shifts the parameters slightly, but I suspect that my objections are just as transferable as they were previously. Ultimately, you misunderstand infallibility regardless of which particular document is under discussion.

    However, I note you never googled the document in an attempt to determine if it was a private letter or papal bull. So how can you have spent all this time certain that I’m wrong, when you don’t even know the source material? You just know, eh? I find that makes your claims less credible.

    I know infallibility, having (again) argued the subject at length, in many fora, against many people. I’ve got a good idea of how it is applied, and to what it applies. I also understand its deeper theological meaning: it is an admission of sin — wretched, perhaps even rampant, sin — on the part of the Church.

    So yes, I may not have Googled the document that you claim is infallible, either in whole or in part. But the debate itself is about infallibility and how it applies, which is an area I do know, and I also do know that very few Church documents are actually infallible, or contain infallible teaching. Persona Humana is not one of them, of course.

    Another misreading: I’m not trying to reduce the Church to contradiction. There’s a difference between consistency and error. My interest is in looking at various institutions that try to track the truth about moral value, of which the Church is only one.

    A fundamentally erroneous base assumption which results in a fundamentally erroneous approach to, and understanding of, Church doctrine and how it applies.

    The Church is certainly wrong about consensual adult homosexuality…

    This is a much larger claim than you probably realize. Please demonstrate your claim to be true, with substantive proof or rational argument, when next you post here.

    Note that appeals to other animal species do not count as substantive proof, for at least three reasons: 1) humans are vastly different from e.g. bonobos and chimpanzees, despite close similarities in our coding DNA and the coding DNA of those species, 2) other animal species also engage in behaviour that we regard as abhorrent at times, and 3) “what other animal species do” is an empirical matter pertaining to those other species; you cannot derive a moral imperative applicable from those base facts, let alone a moral imperative that is applicable to humans.

    Per the site rules, if your next post does not contain any such argument, I may or may not simply delete it depending on how busy I am and whether or not I feel like repeating myself yet again.

    …but what’s interesting is that this error is rooted in a method of moral inquiry that often yields good results. So the question is: what is it about the design of an epistemic institution (an institution that enacts epistemic procedures) that leads to error, and can these features be rooted out, or is some kind of errancy inevitable?

    You could answer your question in moments by asking yourself what your view of the Church ultimately is. If you see it as an institution with an actual connection to the divine, and given the propensity of that institution to reach good results in its moral calculus concerning most/all other matters, then you should reasonably conclude that the actual error may rest in your own position on the issue of homosexuality.

    If on the other hand you see the Church as a merely human institution with no connection to the divine (either due to the Church’s illegitimacy in that regard or your disbelief in the divine), then you must conclude that the Church is, like all human things, fallible to the degree that humans in general are fallible. No human enterprise has ever succeeded in being 100% error-free, and none ever will; as a result, some level of errancy is indeed inevitable.

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